Complete textual-variant dossier
Adverse entailment established
Sections distinguish readings, edition history, evidence, theological consequences, and the Research Center's evaluation. CBGM is an analytical tool; editorial committees—not the software—make textual decisions.
1Passage and issue
Passage
Issue
John 12:8 stands in the received text and the principal modern critical editions; the substantive question is its meaning, not a current whole-verse omission.
Variant class
Omission / addition
2Textus Receptus
Greek reading
“For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.”
Authorized Version
The Authorized Version rendering has not yet been entered in the structured field.
Edition note
The Research Center uses the received Greek text underlying the Authorized Version as its baseline; edition-specific differences are recorded when the variation unit requires them.
Historical annotation witness
Erasmus’s Annotationes
Erasmus’s printed Greek text, his Latin annotation, and the Research Center’s evaluation are distinct evidence. Each edition remains separately identified because Erasmus revised the Annotationes across his five editions.
Not yet assessed. No inference about Erasmus’s silence has been made. A Latin annotation and translation will appear here only after an edition and exact locus have been verified.
The Erasmus annotation audit has not yet been completed for this locus. Do not infer from this status that Erasmus was silent.
Westminster and Dutch annotation witnesses
Westminster Annotations
Not yet assessed. No inference from silence is made.
Dutch Annotations
Not yet assessed. No inference from silence is made.
3NA28 baseline and critical-text rationale
NA28 baseline reading
Minor witnesses vary the wording, but SBLGNT and NA28 retain the complete verse.
Translation or explanation
Minor witnesses vary the wording, but SBLGNT and NA28 retain the complete verse.
Metzger’s report of the UBS committee
Metzger reports the UBS4 committee's treatment of the variation unit. The note grounds the relevant decision in the weight and distribution of external attestation, a proposed mechanism of accidental omission, the likelihood of scribal or liturgical expansion, the comparative difficulty of the readings; the printed confidence rating represented here is {C}. This is a controlled synopsis rather than a quotation.
Locator: Bruce M. Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, 2nd ed., note on John 12:8
ECM / CBGM evidence and editors
No passage-specific ECM/CBGM editorial explanation is attached to this record. Official method sources describe the CBGM as a set of coherence procedures, not a decision-maker: editors define variation units and local stemmata and evaluate pre-genealogical, genealogical, and stemmatic coherence together with transcriptional, intrinsic, and other philological evidence.
4UBS6 and intended NA29 revision
UBS6 retains the NA28 / UBS5 Greek main-text wording in John, so no main-text change is shown for this passage. The separate project ledger covers Acts, Mark, and Revelation.
No change row is attached to this passage.
UBS6 is published, and the German Bible Society identifies its Greek main text as identical to the intended NA29 main text. The complete NA29 volume and its apparatus remain forthcoming. Project-ledger rows retain their source and verification statements until they are checked against the published UBS6 text and, when available, the NA29 apparatus.
5Doctrinal and four-point analysis
Effect class
Weakening of explicit biblical testimony
Exact proposition affected
The bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Doctrinal analysis
“Me ye have not always” refers to Christ’s visible, pre-resurrection presence in this form, not to an absolute absence from his church. Its challenge is ethical and christological: genuine care for the poor must not become a mask for refusing costly honor to Christ.
Bahnsen four-point examination
Arbitrariness
At John 12:8, the critical choice avoids arbitrariness only to the extent that it states public manuscript, transcriptional, and intrinsic grounds. Editorial status: Preliminary record accepted for staging; independent review remains pending. Differences in pronouns and order appear in the manuscript tradition, but the principal current critical text does not omit John 12:8. They do not justify announcing that the entire Johannine verse lacks critical support.
Inconsistency
The criteria used at John 12:8 must be applied to comparable readings as well. A principle such as age, difficulty, brevity, or coherence cannot be decisive here and quietly reversed elsewhere merely to escape a historical, grammatical, or theological difficulty.
Consequences
Weakening of explicit biblical testimony: “Me ye have not always” refers to Christ’s visible, pre-resurrection presence in this form, not to an absolute absence from his church. Its challenge is ethical and christological: genuine care for the poor must not become a mask for refusing costly honor to Christ.
Preconditions of intelligibility
The argument presupposes stable authorship, meaningful language, objective logical norms, transmissible evidence, and a coherent account of how Scripture can be received and identified by the church. The analysis tests whether the method can make those conditions intelligible without reducing the text to an indefinitely revisable editorial construct.
This framework examines an argument and its conditions; it does not claim to read an editor's private motives.
6Argument for the received reading
External and historical evidence
Principal competing reading: Minor witnesses vary the wording, but SBLGNT and NA28 retain the complete verse. Differences in pronouns and order appear in the manuscript tradition, but the principal current critical text does not omit John 12:8.
Internal and transcriptional evidence
The Synoptic accounts contain parallel sayings, which can generate harmonization in either direction. A scribe may conform details to Matthew or Mark; another may shorten a phrase perceived as repetitive. Defenders need not invent an omission to establish the verse’s authority, and readers of modern editions should not infer that all variation is trivial.
Reception and ecclesiastical use
Differences in pronouns and order appear in the manuscript tradition, but the principal current critical text does not omit John 12:8. “Me ye have not always” refers to Christ’s visible, pre-resurrection presence in this form, not to an absolute absence from his church.
Providential-preservation analysis
Providential preservation is not used as a substitute for evidence at John 12:8. It supplies the confessional context in which manuscript transmission, broad reception, and the church's actual possession of Scripture are evaluated together.
Canonical coherence with the rest of Scripture
Canonical coherence remains an explicit test: a proposed reading must make grammatical and theological sense within the immediate context and the rest of Scripture. No conflict is asserted merely because two editions differ; the claimed incoherence must be demonstrated at this passage.
Canonical-coherence verdict
The Authorized Version is retained where its representation of the TR forms a coherent reading within the immediate context and the rest of Scripture. Any competing form must demonstrate an equal or better canonical fit rather than merely invoke an edition or method label.
Response to the principal critical argument
Editorial status: Preliminary record accepted for staging; independent review remains pending. Differences in pronouns and order appear in the manuscript tradition, but the principal current critical text does not omit John 12:8. They do not justify announcing that the entire Johannine verse lacks critical support.
Conclusion
The temporal contrast also depends on the incarnation. “Me ye have not always” refers to Christ’s visible, pre-resurrection presence in this form, not to an absolute absence from his church. John can record this sentence while teaching the coming presence of the Spirit and Christ’s abiding fellowship with his people.
Accuracy here serves both sides of the discussion. Defenders need not invent an omission to establish the verse’s authority, and readers of modern editions should not infer that all variation is trivial. The right conclusion is simply that the full saying enjoys agreement across the main printed texts. Its challenge is ethical and christological: genuine care for the poor must not become a mask for refusing costly honor to Christ.
Logical entailment
The Authorized Version serves as the faithful English representation. The preservation claim applies immediately to the authentic Hebrew and Greek texts—not to an English translation as though it were the inspired source.
Canonical-status rule: Physical printing is not canonical inclusion. If an edition prints a passage in double brackets while judging it secondary or non-original, it disagrees with the received text concerning the identity and extent of inspired Scripture.
Status: Established
Immediate textual or doctrinal consequence
At John 12:8, the received text reads “For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.” and its Authorized Version representation reads . The assessed critical reading is “Minor witnesses vary the wording, but SBLGNT and NA28 retain the complete verse.”. The immediate consequence is that the critical text no longer states the received wording at this locus. The card classifies the change as a weakening of explicit biblical testimony, not by itself as a formal denial of the larger doctrine.
Necessary reasoning chain
- At John 12:8, the received Hebrew/Greek form is “For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.”; the Authorized Version represents it as . The assessed critical form is “Minor witnesses vary the wording, but SBLGNT and NA28 retain the complete verse.”.
- The received and critical forms are not the same at this locus. Therefore, if the competing critical form is original, the received form is secondary rather than the authentic wording at this place. The immediate consequence is: At John 12:8, the received text reads “For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.” and its Authorized Version representation reads . The assessed critical reading is “Minor witnesses vary the wording, but SBLGNT and NA28 retain the complete verse.”. The immediate consequence is that the critical text no longer states the received wording at this locus. The card classifies the change as a weakening of explicit biblical testimony, not by itself as a formal denial of the larger doctrine.
- If the received form at this place is secondary rather than original, then the authentic Hebrew/Greek text was not kept pure at this place in the received textual tradition; therefore the unqualified confessional preservation claim must be denied or redefined.
Ultimate preservation consequence
If the competing reading is original and the received reading is secondary, then God did not preserve and keep pure the authentic text at this place in the received textual tradition. The unqualified confessional claim that Scripture was kept pure in all ages must therefore be denied or redefined.
Sources
- Westminster Confession of Faith (1647)Chapter 1, section 8 — Governing confessional preservation claim
- F. H. A. Scrivener, The New Testament in the Original Greek according to the Text followed in the Authorized VersionReceived Greek reading
- German Bible Society — UBS6 publications and relation to NA29Current critical-edition, ECM, or editorial documentation
- German Bible Society — The Sixth Edition of the Greek New TestamentCurrent critical-edition, ECM, or editorial documentation
- INTF — Online Tools for the ECMCurrent critical-edition, ECM, or editorial documentation
Read the full research essay and its sources
Passage: John 12:8
Received reading: “For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.”
Principal competing reading: Minor witnesses vary the wording, but SBLGNT and NA28 retain the complete verse.
Editorial status: Preliminary record accepted for staging; independent review remains pending.
The verse is sometimes grouped with alleged whole-sentence removals
from the Gospel. That is a control error. Scrivener, the SBLGNT, and
NA28 all read: “For the poor you always have with you, but me you do not
always have.” Differences in pronouns and order appear in the manuscript
tradition, but the principal current critical text does not omit John
12:8.
Jesus alludes to Deuteronomy 15:11, where the continuing presence of
the poor grounds open-handed generosity. He is not giving disciples
permission to neglect them. Judas’ appeal to charity is false because he
steals; Mary’s act is timely because Jesus is approaching burial.
Ordinary opportunities for almsgiving will remain, but this embodied
preparation cannot be repeated after his death.
The Synoptic accounts contain parallel sayings, which can generate
harmonization in either direction. A scribe may conform details to
Matthew or Mark; another may shorten a phrase perceived as repetitive.
Such subreadings deserve ordinary apparatus treatment. They do not
justify announcing that the entire Johannine verse lacks critical
support.
The temporal contrast also depends on the incarnation. “Me ye have
not always” refers to Christ’s visible, pre-resurrection presence in
this form, not to an absolute absence from his church. John can record
this sentence while teaching the coming presence of the Spirit and
Christ’s abiding fellowship with his people.
Accuracy here serves both sides of the discussion. Defenders need not
invent an omission to establish the verse’s authority, and readers of
modern editions should not infer that all variation is trivial. The
right conclusion is simply that the full saying enjoys agreement across
the main printed texts. Its challenge is ethical and christological:
genuine care for the poor must not become a mask for refusing costly
honor to Christ.
Sources and further reading
- Deuteronomy 15:7–11; Matthew 26:6–13; Mark 14:3–9; John 12:1–8.
- Scrivener, John 12:8.
- SBLGNT and NA28 at John 12:8.
7Related materials
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- Record
- VAR-2180
- Status
- Preliminary
- Version
- 1.1-dossier
- Review
- Level B — Editorial synthesis
- Editor
- Chris Thomas
- Reviewer
- Independent reviewer pending assignment
- First date
- 1st century · Date Range
- Last revised
- 2026-07-22
Evidence and editorial controls
- Verification
- Passage, principal readings, and stated editorial comparison checked against Scrivener’s received Greek text and the current SBLGNT text and apparatus; exhaustive manuscript collation remains open. Metzger commentary entries were matched by exact passage where present; ECM/CBGM rationale is passage-specific only when an official editorial explanation is cited. Ledger rows are identified as UBS6 / intended NA29 data but retain their row-level verification caveats pending direct collation.
- Rights and access
- Original editorial synthesis. Biblical readings are short scholarly quotations; cited editions and digital witnesses retain their stated rights and access conditions.
- Known limitations
- This staging record summarizes the principal variation unit and representative evidence. It is not a fresh collation of every extant manuscript, version, lectionary, or patristic citation.
Links from this record
No public outgoing links are recorded.
Records that cite or connect here
No public backlinks are recorded.
Corrections and evidence submissions
No correction submission is presently attached to this record. Submit evidence or read the correction policy.
Chris Thomas, “John 12:8 — “The Poor Always Ye Have with You”: Is the Entire Verse Authentic?,” VAR-2180, Confessional Bibliology Research Center, version 1.0-staging, last revised 2026-07-22.
Revision history
- — Chris Thomas